We're back with a new episode of Breaking the Rules. For this fifth episode we have Biz’s the presence and experience, one of the most talented and stylish writers in Barcelona, to tell us his story and his vision of graffiti in Barcelona. Thanks to Zeus for letting us use his flat for the recording.

We would like to remind you that with these podcasts we aim to record the lives of the graffiti writers who have laid the foundations of what this culture is today. As we have said on previous occasions, there is no chronological order.

We hope you'll continue to enjoy it with us and that you'll let us know your comments and suggestions through our Instagram, Twitter accounts.

All photos belong to Biz.

Musa-Good afternoon, we’re here with Biz and Zeus, in Mataró. What’s up guys, how are you doing?

Biz- Fine, good afternoon Musa.

Zeus- Good afternoon.

M- Well, tell us... How did you get to know graffiti?

B- I actually discovered graffiti through my brother. I’ve got a sister and a brother, he is 4 years older than I am. In those times, halfway through the 80’s, break dance was everywhere. My brother was a breaker and he hung out a lot with a neighbor, “Lorita”, who was really good at breaking.

M- Lorita, was that a name or nickname?

B- Lorita, I don’t really remember, I’d say it was a nickname. They used to go dancing near the University subway. My brother had LP’s of those times, and many of them had graffiti pieces from NY in the 80’s on the cover. I remember one, of the Rock Steady Crew, where Doze had drawn some characters and letters, and that amazed me. I’d always liked drawing, and my brother did do some writing too, behind my parents’ house. I took a liking to it and started sketching

M- You were from the Marina area, in Barcelona, right?

B- Yes, Marina.

Z- Closet to the Olivetti factory.

B- I started seeing what graffiti was about and told my brother I wanted to go hang out with him at University (sub), ‘cause I was liking the vibes. That would have been around ’85 – ’86, I’m not exactly sure. We went to the subway station, there were lots of people dancing, and my brother introduced me to some, Koa and Kapi. DFR was also there, and the Estrellas Negras (Black Stars) …

A bit later I managed to get a spray can, light blue…

M- You managed to get a spray can?

B- It was impossible to get them at the neighborhood drugstore, they had them on a kind of mezzanine, that had to be reached by a ladder, so they had to get them for you. It was the classic Felton cans, the ones used to paint cars, which had the brand and model.

I bought it with some saved up money, I was only 13 or 14 years old, and I tagged a bit around the neighborhood. I remember tagging the entrance of the Marina subway station, over some maroon tiles that made the blue look really good. I loved it.

I think I wrote Sylink. A name I had chosen. I think I took it from the Rock Steady Crew album where there were a lot of tags, and I made a variation of them. Some time later, I got hold of other spray cans and my brother and I went writing together, behind our house. That was my first piece.

Biz's first piece "SEA" and his brother's ‘Sneaker’. 85-86

M- There must have not been much painted, in those times…

B- There was no graffiti, there was nothing at all. That wall is still there, now full of graffiti of the new generations. I didn’t use to take pictures back then, but after some years I was able to take one of my first piece. I wrote SEA, white with red outline. My brother wrote some letters, SPI, or something like that. I think Shan was also there, I knew him from a camping I used to go to, Tossa de Mar. Around that time my brother was kind of stopping with break dance, but there was still some going on there. We created a group called Crime Band. It was 4 or 5 of us: Kers, Charlie, Shan, and I, and afterwards Reks got with us too. We’d get some cans and do something. I started writing, and a guy that also went to the camping and lived in Alfonso X (other area), saw me and told me there was lots of graffiti in his neighborhood. And that’s how you discovered things back then, because there was no information.

Tossa de Mar Camping. Some members of Crime Band, 86-87

Arjonilla, Andalucia. 1986-87. Abandoned train station

M- When you went out to those first pieces, were you worried about being seen, or didn’t it worry you as people didn’t seem to care?

B- You would write any and everywhere, you didn’t care. For example, one of the Crime Bands lived in Sants, and we did a piece right in the middle of the town square. I remember not daring much, I’d have my sketch and at first, I would transfer it to chalk. We made one with my brother that said Care, or something like that, and the next day we did another one with the group. He liked my drawings best, so I’d bring the sketch, I’d pass it on to chalk, and then we’d do it all together.

M- One of the things we talked about with Zeus, during his interview, is that people don’t remember, but pieces were chalked out first back then because you weren’t about to waste cans on outlining.

Z- Now that you mention it, I remember, but it was not very well seen, was it?

M- I don’t think it was frowned upon.

B- No, and there’s still people using it. Yup, I’ve seen it, people that are writing now and using them. Not so long ago I did it myself when I met up with Cisco. He had some chalks with him, and I asked to borrow them. I outlined, and it’s not that bad, it works.

M- I don’t doubt it, but I really thought that was done to scrimp and save…

B- Well, you didn’t really dare to do it in one go with the can. It was the way it was done, and it was also done together. One outlined, the other filled in, the other drew a figure, and another did some bubbles. And then... it all looked the way it looked.

(Laughter)

It was more of a group thing back then, now it’s more individual.

M- That’s still being done on trains though, right? Putting the crew name.

B- Yes. Yes, it does have more of a unity feeling, it’s different. I like it, although on wall it’s almost never done because it’s just too much to agree on, and you must be quite on the same track to deliver. But I do like it more as it’s more of a collective thing. You see it in the 80’s graffiti, the esthetic of the Beat Street pieces, like Ramon’s.. a bit of letters, a figure, it was more like a decorative mural, and I like that look. It was a bit like this in NYC.

Anyway, when we started, we did about 7 or 8 pieces, no more, and after that the group dissolved. Well, they stopped writing and dancing. Shan, Reks and I remained.

M- You were telling us that in the camping you had met someone from Alfonso X..

B- Yes, he told me about that area. He did not do pieces, he only did some tagging. In the camping there was a wall by a waterfall, and I used to draw there with some chalks I’d take with me from school. I did letters and figures. I’d buy some paint and fill in the letters, that’s were he saw me and told me about his area.

M- Did you meet anyone in that area?

B- Well I’d go out on my own and one day, on a Sunday morning, I got to Alfonso X and saw that the SN had just finished doing their thing. I didn’t know them. They were a couple of years older than I was. I talked to Prince. We got on well, and he was really nice. He took me to his house, he lived around Sagrada Familia, and he lent me the Spray Can Art, Subway Art, and some negatives of some pictures from London, from when he had been there. They were ahead of our time. I went crazy with all that material, pieces from Mafia 2, Golden, SN and the Hispan. I mean, I hadn’t seen anything else. This, and the pieces from University. There was one piece there, the usual you know, which said Hip Hop with some buildings, which later was painted by Golden.

Z- I’d love to see a picture of that.

B- Mafia 2 always did stuff as a group, I remember their “Underground” wall, and another that said “Latin Shape”, which I think was done in Mércat Nou. It was onde by all of them.

Z- Yes, that happened here too, I’ve seen it particularly in zone 2 of Mataró, collective pieces. I remember one of a robot that said “art comes out of my can”.

I didn’t write then, but I hung out with them and saw how they wrote and did their thing.

B- In Crime Band, it was almost always me that brought the sketch, because I was the most motivated. I’d provide the figure, which I sometimes took out of a video game of that era, like the Fantomas we did in Hospitalet, with CB letters. But I don’t have pictures of any of it.

B- Mafia 2 always did stuff as a group, I remember their “Underground” wall, and another that said “Latin Shape”, which I think was done in Mércat Nou. It was onde by all of them.

Z- Yes, that happened here too, I’ve seen it particularly in zone 2 of Mataró, collective pieces. I remember one of a robot that said “art comes out of my can”. I didn’t write then, but I hung out with them and saw how they wrote and did their thing.

B- In Crime Band, it was almost always me that brought the sketch, because I was the most motivated. I’d provide the figure, which I sometimes took out of a video game of that era, like the Fantomas we did in Hospitalet, with CB letters. But I don’t have pictures of any of it.

M- And you don’t have pics because you didn’t have a cam or because you didn’t think of it back then?

B- I didn’t have a camera, but at that age I wasn’t thinking of it either, I had not grasped that concept yet. Over time you realize how good it would have been to have it all on paper.

M- Do you think it’s lost, or does someone maybe have it?

B- I’ve been able to get my hands on some, but many others have been lost. I don’t think there are pictures.

M- That’s the bad thing about being the firsts. Later on people were taking pictures constantly, starting around ’89-’90, for sure…

B- Yes. I think in Madrid it was a bit different, there was more of a culture of taking pictures, and they have much more material, at least from what I’ve seen. I saw they’ve published a book about the ‘80s, with tons of pics and material. Madrid is big, there was a lot of writing being done over there.

M- I don’t think it’s about more writing, or there being more people, but just that it was more concentrated. I mean, Alcorcón, Móstoles… there was stuff being done in these places. I think more was done in the outskirts of Madrid.

B- Yes, and here too, in Santa Coloma, San Andrés, Hospitalet... and also in Barcelona.

M- I do sort of get the feeling of our ‘80s being poorer that theirs, especially because of the looks.

B- You see their pieces and they look bigger and more colorful. Madrid got hit hard by rap and hip hop, and its derivates, like ‘Rap in Madrid’, and all that. And as for the looks they had, they were taking it all a lot more seriously. At best, I’d be wearing colored Fat Lazers.

It was more hip hop over there, here people came from other influences. Teddy was a bit of a rocker, Prince was more of the breakdancing, but Cisco and Fosa came on another roll and their graffiti was not very hip hop. It was different there, you could see it in the way they did their writing, it was a different attitude.

Biz & Free, 1989. Beatsky y Dope posing in front of the pieces. Info Sutil

M- Is it from here on that you establish contact with SN?

B- I met Prince and he lent me all that material, but I never got to do some writing with them. But it did take me back in time, because I had met others with my brother too, before he stopped.

M- And you met the people from San André in Universidad.

B- Yeah, I met Fase who was writing Speak, met Daz, although that was a bit later. Later also met Franki, Nak, Free, Nan, Cad 73, Crom... all in San Andrés, and made friends with them. They knew me through Crime Band although the group barely existed anymore.

I lived in Marina, which is the same subway line as San Andrés, so I’d go there in the weekends, and during the week I’d go to school. We’d go behind the church and meet up in a park that had a basketball court. We’d also sometimes meet in the ‘wooden park’. There were always people writing there. You didn’t need to set up a time, after lunch you rested a bit and then you went over there. There was always someone. We didn’t have a house to get together at, we were just kids. We were near the train station, so whenever we’d go out, we’d always bomb some train. There was this curved bend with a red light for trains, where they’d stop for a few minutes and we always took advantage to tag it with marker, make a couple of bubbles, and out. We had no idea. Nowadays, pieces are done, or whole cars, but we just had no clue… We didn’t even take pictures or anything. We’d hang out for a while, tag one or two, and then you’d leave.

I did a couple of things with Fase, one of them a nice high wall that was behind the church. We needed ladders for it, it was Shan, Fase and I. In those days we’d start without even thinking, it’d be like “oh let’s write here, let’s go”… Fase was starting on a character that was going to be wearing handcuffs, we were working on letters for ‘Shan and Dion’, when the cops got there… He showed them his sketch and because they’d taken our personal data, he decided not to draw the handcuffs, just in case. That wall lasted quite a while. Later on we did another wall with Free and Cad. I did a silver Biz on a train.

M- Were you already writing Biz in that period?

B- Yes, during that time I already did. But in the beginning I wrote Dion, I’ve used a lot of names.

M- Do you think the police stopped because you the writing on the wall or because it could be a political thing?

B- If you did put something against them, you could have more trouble, yes. But if you just put your name, they’d have no idea. Nowadays people know, but back then they didn’t understand.

M-They sometimes just asked your information to scare you…

B- Yeah, or they’d stop you and say “should have been hanging with a girlfriend”… and they’d take your data, or at most take your cans.

M- And in your area, did you have anything close by?

B- Yes, I lived close to Glorias, I could walk over. There was the ‘Olivetti’, which was the old manufacturing factory of Olivetti, that had been closed off. It had a huge lateral wall, and it was used. I don’t know who got to it first, if it was Mafia2, the SN or the ones from San Andrés. But yeah, there was a great wall and people got busy there. There was another abandoned factory next to it -still exists today but is now in use- and the people from San Andrés squatted it. Inside, each had their own floor, Crime band still existed in those times, so we had one too. It was like our own play area.

There was a guard called Ure that watched the factories around there, and we made friends with him.

M- He was very nice.

B- Yes, he was. He’s passed away. Such a good guy. Aside from that factory, he had keys to others, which he watched so people wouldn’t get in. Cad and Dive were really into music then, and he’d allow them to set up the turntable and speakers, and we had some parties, about 4 or so. We’d have a great time, people from San Andrés and other areas would show up. We listened to the music we liked and that we couldn’t listen to anywhere else, as they wouldn’t play it anywhere except maybe Soweto (club) and maybe one or two places more…

Besides that, we’d have an open bar, we would buy the bottles. In those time we didn’t have much money, and this way we had our fun. We’d start our parties in the afternoon until night, some would stay until the next day, but not many would.

M- Most of us had to be back home at a certain time…

B- Yup, I did. I was 15-16 years old, and I had a curfew.

M- You were also telling me how Ure would get dressed...

B- Yes, when there was a party, Ure would get all dressed up, in suit and tie, and he’d have a blast.

M- Tell us about Henry Chalfant and Futura2000…

B- In the end of the ‘80s, ’87 or something, Henry Chalfant came to Barcelona for the Movida Gansa (jam) and he seized the opportunity to create an event in the Sala Dels Transformadors, which was in the Arc de Triomf. I went to school right next to it and found out about it. I went with Shan to the lecture. There were lots of pictures that appeared in the Subway Art and others of walls that were in the Spray Can Art. I think Lee Quinones was also there, but I am not sure. Fase was there, and others from the graffiti world, but I didn’t know them yet.

I didn’t get to have contact with Henry at that time, I met him some years later.

M- Did you find out about it by pure chance?

B- Yeah, because it was next to my school, I don’t even know how I found out. We went to it and I freaked seeing the train pictures, the colors, everything. Consequently, I learned about Subway Art and the work of Martha Cooper.

Futura 2000’ s postcard from his ecxpo in Barcelona, 1989

M- That was way before Futura came around here, right?

B- That was just before. Futura came in ’89. He came for an exposition in the Borne, of his paintings. He also painted a mural. I don’t know how I got there with Shan, but coincidentally he was writing next to a Puerto Rican called Astor who spoke Spanish. He asked us if we wanted to help, there were pieces in smooth colors that needed to be filled and that were easy. The artistic side he’d take care of. I remember he signed a postcard for me, both he and Astor.I know he did his expo and that all that paint went to Fase, who did his legendary BCN Power and Fasim’s pieces.

I didn’t get the chance to catch the expo, I don’t remember why. Futura was a really nice guy. And he had on very original clothing, as a cyclist, short visor, tight shirt, shorts, sneakers, as many wear nowadays. He was always onto the latest trends. And he said back then, there were already people like Seen, Lee Quinones that were doing crazy railcars with letters and figures, and he wanted to do something different, that’s why he did that wholecar with only colors. It was a shift.

M- And you, painted trains, right?

B- I started hanging out with the people from San Andrés on the weekends, and as the train station was right next to it, we’d always try to enter the train depot in the afternoon. There was no security watch for this one shed, but there was for the one in front that was under construction. We’d have to watch out.

M- It was quite a big depot, though, wasn’t it? Depending on where you’d stand, you wouldn’t be seen easily.

B- It was like a railway siding where the trains would pass on the side… that section does not exist anymore, but that’s where they used to leave out of service trains. You could get close there. We could actually have stayed for hours there, but we didn’t get it. We’d go in and throw 4 tags. Once Daz got hold of white car-body paint, the same as on the trains, and we did some pieces with brush and outlined it in black. Another time, we met up on a Saturday to go writing. It’s one of the best feelings of when I started… We started in the afternoon, on a train, and were almost finishing our pieces. A worker appeared suddenly, because that train had to leave the depot at that moment. We left running like crazy so we could see the train enter the station. What a sensation. That feeling of seeing your name, circulating, on the move. Graffiti. What an incredible feeling.

M- So, you’ve done quite some trains, haven’t you? This you were telling us was before the ‘90s and Crime Band didn’t exist anymore…

B- I haven’t done that many, I’ve always been more into walls. There are people more dedicated to it. I had a stint with it, but I stopped. I did tag along with people who took me with them, but I didn’t have that kind of energy. Yup, that was around the end of ’89, beginnings of ’90. Crime Band did not exist anymore. I wrote Biz, and we were 3RL by then; it was Free, Daz, Crom and I. Later more people were added, Cad73, Sika, Posik, Heiz, Save, Keis… lots.

M- About the ‘80’s, were already there?

B- Yeah, more or less. That’s the best about graffiti, you know. You get to know people that with time become your best friends. Usually, in a city, whilst growing up each one does his thing and you lose track of each other… Graffiti made us maintain that.

M- So you really noticed the change, of the ‘80s to the ’90s… I guess more people, more information…

B- Yes, there was a good number of people but, for example, lots of people from San Andrés who did graffiti in the ‘80s stopped during ’90-’91-’92.

M- Did people stop getting together in Universidad? Because you went there to exchange pics… Remember the jumbles we’d have in Uni, that even containers were thrown into the station?

B- There weren’t that many people, and the ones that got together was more due to the hip hop and rap, more than for breakdancing, that was in the ’88-’89-’90. About what went down in Universidad, there was this burger place right in front, I think it was called Fancy Food. People would make a mess, being little punks, and security would arrive. And everyone ran out.

M- You mention lots of people stopped during the end of the ‘80s and beginning of ‘90s, for example in San Andrés. Did this change your habits?

B- Yes, I started going less over there starting ’91. In ’92 I was doing my mandatory military service, so during ’93-’94 I went even less. There was not much contact. I remember seeing Zoe a lot, who lived in Joanic. The yellow line was close to home, in Bogatell, and I remember we’d meet up real early and we’d bomb line 4. Besides, we knew there was no security guards from 6 to 8. We tagged with homemade markers. We’d use a Kodak film spool together with a piece of foam from the erasers; we’d cut it to make them fit and filled them with light bulb paint. We’d often meet up on a Saturday or Sunday to go to San Andrés, but we’d take line 4. Later on I stopped seeing him, as he also stopped going there. Each one started doing their own thing. And then I started meeting people like Heiz, Keis.. that was I think more in ’93-’94, also met Dios, Inupie, Zeus, Heroe.

M- AAA moment, correct?

B- Yes, I also changed my name then, and in ’94 I started writing Hask. I wanted to try out other types of letters with new connections; that’s why I always liked changing names, to be able to create other combinations and start over. So I changed and started writing in Pueblo Nuevo, in ’94. Jetsan, Ders and Reks were there. The were lots of factories and quite an industrial area, so there were lots of walls. You could do quite a bit of writing there. And it was close to home.

M- You are someone that has always drawn a lot, right? Are you meticulous, or more of jotting the idea down?

B- Yes, I’ve always liked drawing. I draw almost every day. Before going to sleep, I take a notebook and marker, and always doodle something. I do fast ones, and I get ideas or make letters; I like making a concept and working on it, and getting my drawing out of it. I like making figures, it’s fun to do whilst painting, it makes your piece different and decorates it. I’ve alays like the NYC concept of letters and figure.

I wrote Hask, and started making more connections, halfway wild style, putting in lota of colors. In those days I put in more colors, and towards the end of the ‘90s I started simplifying, style and color.

M- Up to the actual point of them sometimes being minimalistic.

B- Yes, but I also like it with colors; but at that time, I liked the contrast between the yellow letters and blue background. I also started watching lots of animation, cartoons, new Hanna-Barbera cartoons of the end of the ‘90s. I loved that super simple style, and thought of mixing cartoon with graffiti, the letters. Combining. These are personal tastes, there are others who love to write in certain picked spots.

M-What kind of walls do you like?

B- Well, preferably, I’d rather have a not-to-tall wall, so I spend less paint and energy. I mean, I also like great big walls, but then you need to find a place where you can come back to, because one day is usually not enough. You need a weekend, a couple of days to work on it. If not, you’re all stressed out to finish it off.

M- Ok, tell us more about your travels.

B- My first trip was to Alicante in the ‘90s, and at the beginning of the 2000’s I went to Madrid, to Sems’ house, we stayed at his place, he was really cool with us. We painted several times. I knewZeta and Chop,, but we weren’t close.

In 2005 I coincided again with Sems and Colh in New York. What an impression it makes. You get out of the subway, and it’s crazy. Everything I had in my head about NYC, subways, the city.

Sems was working on some kind of book, and he had to interview many people. I met a lot of the people in the history of NYC, and also people from now. It was interesting. I met host, Noah, Part1, Stak, Spar... who had tons of pictures.

M- And when you met them, what impression did you have?

B- Well, to start off, they were older than us and, for example, Ket was still writing, but many others had disconnected a bit. But to be honest, what was being done in the graffiti scene in NYC had changed a lot compared to what had been done before. And it being something so sought after, the bubble style and tagging has evolved much more than murals. Sometimes I think that in NYC they’ve wanted to have a style of doing it all very neat and well, but it doesn’t look like their natural style. Kind of trying a little like the European graffiti, with realistic faces and the like, and I’m not feeling it… NYC had always been the epicentre, the hotbed. Well, there was Paris with Bando and Mode 2 that were also ahead of the curve, as well as London. But in NYC, when I went, they were doing a graffiti that to me didn’t seem theirs. Even though there are writers with tons of talent.

M- And then, back to Barcelona…

B-In ’93-’94, more or less, I met Keis, Dios introduced me to him. We hit it off and started writing together quite a lot, and it was one of the writing partners I had during the ‘90s.

We moved a lot in the Pueblo Nuevo area, close to the Crespo drugstore, who sold Felton and some other spray can brands and always gave us graffiti writers a good deal on the price. So, we did quite a lot in that neighborhood. In the ‘90s I did a great deal of writing with him in the areas of Glorias, Pueblo Nuevo, Selva de Mar… Well, a lot to those standards back then, not like now, where people do several pieces in a week.

M- Did you spend time daily on graffiti?

B- Yes, almost always, graffiti is quite present and, well, I know it will always be. When I see a train, o when I’m out and about, I’m always keeping an eye out on what’s been done. Or sometimes I’ll notice the designs on some t-shirt, or a color combination I like, or a van with a painted logo on it and I think of the letters and colors combined. Graffiti has always influenced me in many ways, not only esthetically but also in my way of being. And vice versa too, I wouldn’t write the way I do if I wasn’t the way I am.

Another important writing site in the ‘90s was the area of Sant Just, the hall of fame. People went there a lot and I’m not really sure why, seeing as you could write in a lot of places, but we were always writing in the same spots. We’d decide we’d be going to a particular wall there, for which we had to take a bus, all loaded with our things; whilst we could actually go to a wall next to our houses, but yeah, I guess we went there because it was where everyone went too. It was a way of having your pieces seen. And also the area of the tracks in San Andriá del Besós, that was a good area to write too. You could see it from the train, and the wall was a really long one.

M- Before, off recording time, you were telling me you’d seen Sutil writing right next to your house.

B- Yeah, yeah, one day, it must have been in ’89, I was in the entrance of my house and from afar I could see people writing on the wall of an abandoned factory. You could see big letters. I told my mother I was heading out and I went to check it out.

M- Tell us more about your trips…

B- I went to Rio de Janeiro, Brasil in 2009 with my friend Cent, Rocki. He does capoeira and has been many times. He had tried several times to motivate me to go along in the summertime and spend some days together. In 2009 I decided to go for it, he was there for some capoeira tournaments. We slept at a writer’s house that lives there, but I think he’s from Switzerland, he let us use a room, close to Maracaná. He wrote Beam.

What I really liked about Rio was that everything was very street, people spend most of their time outside, on the street, it’s a very open society… Well, we were in Rio and Mr Beam was really cool, he took us to places where we could write, he knew the city well. I remember going to a favela, Santa Teresa, and the feeling of being there and seeing the contrast with Copa cabana, the rich people area, and where we were on the poor side, so close and so far. So different, it surprised me a little. We did a piece, and you could practically do your thing anywhere. They had other worries over there.

I remember one day going off to do some writing with Rocki, we had a great time, we wrote on a skating ramp and part of a wall behind that, which was next to Maracaná. I like soccer. We had good fun with the people walking by on the street, and eating around there.

M- Did you see any matches?

B- No, I did walk into the field, but didn’t see a match. We went to other favelas as well, in another part of Rio. In one I was really amazed to see huge speakers at the entrance. They love brasilian funk over there and throw lots of parties. We went over there because there were some people in that favela that also did graffiti. I was also surprised at how people were straight away nice and amicable, very open. We didn’t have trouble at all, to be honest, and that even though I saw guns. You’d be walking around and you’d cross some kids carrying a weapon. Or maybe it depends on the favela, on the one with the speakers, for example, there were kids on motorbikes with machine guns, as if it was the most normal thing; but we didn’t have any problem. I think that if you go in humbly, and don’t pick on anyone, and are not showing off, you’re not in risk of running into trouble. Unless you’re unlucky.

M- And in New York, did you do some writing there?

B- New York is safer, although you do have to watch out; what I was told is you can’t stare at someone because that could get you problems, that’s why people do their own thing, whichever way they want. Didn’t have any trouble over there.

Yes, we did did something on one of those typical walls, in Manhattan, which was close to the hostel where we were staying. We were able to do a couple of small pieces, but they didn’t last long. The were written over. We also went to do a quick wagon by a railway siding. And also to a legendary place at the end of the Bronx that appears in the Spray Can Art, in a center two-page spread, with some bridges, seen from above.

We did some chromes. I remember there was a piece of the wall that was broken, and there was a very thick layer of paint, the whole history of graffiti. There were things by Sento, some bubbles too, it was incredible.

M- Well, I’d like to go back to the story of the story of the wagon, in the track depot…

B- Yes. It was Sems, Colh and me. I didn’t want to do anything, I was scared, I didn’t want to participate, but I tagged along with them. I didn’t even want to get inside, but they cheered me on, and I finally went in with them. They were doing their thing and Sems a nose or something, he saw a guy coming towards us and he fled. We all did.

M- You didn’t finish it? Pics?

B- I did finish mine, but I didn’t sign it. It was really fast. I have some pics, but only managed to get it years later. Well, I was only doing something small and they were doing an elaborated piece, that’s why they didn’t have time to finish. I was just barely done. I remember us getting out of there and we just stopped on the street, and a police car drove by, saw us from afar, and didn’t say anything. I also remember being thirsty and buying one of those gallons of milk, so typical for americans. I loved NYC, although I haven’t been back.

M- And that trip to Mallorca Zeus was talking about…

B- Yeah! At the beginning of 2000 we went to Mallorca; Keis, Zeus, Seur, Cent and I. At first I wasn’t going, but Cent convinced me and came along too. We had a really good time. There was a graffiti contest, and one of the judges was Cantwo, that did a crazy piece. We were lucky and got two prizes, I think it was around 25 thousand pesetas each.

M- I guess you spent it all right there.

B- Yeah, it didn’t last long. It was a fun weekend… and then things happened.

M- I am guessing this cannot be told.

B- Yes, exactly. Let’s say we had a great time at the beach, and stuff.

During that time I wrote Hask but I was starting to look for a name in Spanish and thought about using Juanma, first of all because writers in NYC used their names, Barbara62, Julio204, Cliff159, and I liked that vibe. I did a piece and I did not dislike the combination of letters. So I started using Juanma or JM. I liked JM because there was a time during the start of 2000 that lots of factories in the area got torn down, and there would be small sections of a wall left, standing alone, and JM changed those parts. And it was a good way to do something quick.

M- We’ve skipped some parts of your life, your crews… Like AAA

B- Well, it was first Crime Band, then 3rl, later DTY with Inupie, Dios Keis, SRZ, and that group was started by Inupie and was composed of people from downtown Barcelona. AAA, the crew created by Fase, with Dose, Heroe, and more. In the ‘90s.

M- I am not aware of the degree of involvement you have with the crews…

B- Truth is I like crews, but you end up writing with your friends, those with which you have more inkling. I like crews, but it’s not like it used to be, or like with trains, where there’s more unity… graffiti on the wall is another story, very different, but always enjoyable.

M- I’ve never asked you before, but did you live the era of war in Barcelona?

B- Yes, sure. If I remember correctly, it was about some pieces in the Alfonso X area done by Mafia2, I know they were written over by some pieces by SN, that caused some tension and they started crossing each other out, there was war. I didn’t participate. I love writing, enjoying the moment, taking a pic, and that’s it. I don’t have the notion it will last forever. Just live that instant, and that’s that.

M- Do you want to talk about anything else before we close off?

B- Yeah, I am in the crew Keis created, VOL. It’s more of a punk crew, more ‘70s. They wrote in many plots and estates, lots of bubbles, unsightly graffiti.

M- Unsightly?

B- Ignorant.

M- What does VOL mean?

B- No one knows. I asked Keis, but he hasn’t told me. Pie, Pone88, SRZ, Ankawa, and many more use it. So, in other words, I am in Hawaii Computer, 3rl and VOL.

M- Tell us about your connection with Rocki, not only on the walls, but as a friendship; ‘cause I don’t know if they’re a series, themed, in some kind of order, or you just liking the same things…

B- Yeah, that’s with Hawaii Computers, Kosmic, Pako, and more members, and I’ve mostly written with them. We all really like the Hanna-Barbera type of drawing, cartoonish, and we also like the simplicity of few colors, and the letters. So we decided to do some themed walls, a small production, all of them with the same colors.

In the past nobody used the same colors, each would come with what they had, and out. It was impossible. Now it’s also difficult, depending on who with. You can manage to agree with some, but not with others. It’s not better or worse, it’s just different ways of doing things. We did a couple of series in the Sta Perpetua area; Pako had found a small stream with a low wall, and that worked for us, it was real long. Now we still do stuff together, but that kind of production work has reduced, we’ve simplified it, less figures, or we do it in a couple of days’ time.

M- To you, talking about graffiti and life in general here, what do you think has changed the most from then to now?

B- Graffiti, well, everything goes faster now, the information openly available and, particularly, that people coming from other tendencies or movements start to paint and fuse graffiti with what they like and do, and new forms are created. And new generations start writing and do tons of piece; they learn a lot in a short period of time. The cans work perfectly, and there’s people with much talent doing really cool things. The bomb, tag; like Sawe or Guan, those people. I see it and I’m liking it. And more people, like Nimek, Bunes, Baren, I see their pieces and like them although it’s not what I do. I like it. I am always going to like graffiti, no matter if it’s from a child or someone with skills. Graffiti is always going to be good, because at the end of the day, it’s writing.

M- And what hasn’t changed for you? For example, your passion for graffiti…

B- well, when it’s something new, it’s fascinating. Like when you go to a restaurant you haven’t been before, and something is really tasty, but when you repeat the next time…

When I started writing graffiti I didn’t know I’d keep on writing, it was something I was doing at that moment and didn’t consider I’d still be doing it 30 years later. In graffiti, you start writing, but there comes a time when you search your own style, your thing, and you keep on doing a bit of that.

M- I guess for you there is no end, you want to continue writing. You done believe it will ever end… We’ll be old senior citizen writers.

B- No, I don’t want to stop. Hahaha, yeah, am not stopping for the time being, don’t know if somewhere down the line. No way of knowing how everything will go. I imagine that as time goes by and I am getting older, I’ll need a wheelchair or a cane. Or I’ll have difficulties bending down for an outline. As long as I have the energy and I am able, I’ll keep on doing it. And I guess I’ll be writing less the older I get.

M- OK, maybe you could talk to us about your style, and about drawing.

B- Sure. I also wanted to tell you that in the end of the ‘90s I got a bit fixated with letters and only did figures, characters. I didn’t do letters. I got a little bored, I wanted to do something else and started doing robots, and more characters for kids. I did well made robots at first, and then as if they had been made by a child. I remember people saying “What is this guy doing? What’s happened to him?” I did that during some time. And then I went back to figures and letters.

M- What do you look for when doing letters? How do you want them to be? Any idea? ‘Cause they seem to be dancing.

B- There is no explanation, I do them as I like. There is no motive which explains why one pole is thick and another one thin. I sometimes draw it and do not like how it looks. Visually I try to look for letters that have connections, that can be united, that have a rhythm, that they look like an animated cartoon. That’s what I try to look for in the letters, that they move and not be too serious, free and easy. I mix up letters that have angles and curves. I also like the rounded bubble style although I don’t use it.

M-Ok and now, any anecdote you want to tell us as parting word?

B- I remember at the end of the ‘80s there were some security guards, called the J, that went after graffiti writers. During a time in which people barely knew anything about it, they had a bit of an idea. The did some research, knew we moved around San Andrés. To boot, they sometimes even came out of the subway without their uniform, they’d approach us and talked to us knowing who we were. They tried to pry information out of us. I remember once during a subway transfer, don’t remember exactly how it went down. It was 3 or 4 of us, we were little kids, and we had a couple of thieves behind us that wanted to rob us. One of our guys noticed what was going on, saw the guards, and veered off. The rest of us went downstairs, and the little pickpockets got around us to steal. The one that had veered off had gone to the guards and the J came down and helped us out.

M- One point for the security guards.

B- Well yeah, because otherwise we’d been robbed. They helped that day.

M- Before, off mic, you told me that when you were so little when you started that you wanted to take pictures in Joanic, and your dad would accompany you.

B- Yes, in the Alfonso X area, I asked my dad to come with me. He liked photography and I told him there were pieces I liked. He came along with me on a weekend and we took pictures of everything there was, of SN, Mafia2, Golden. He took the pictures and gifted them to me.

M- So your parents were OK with you writing?

B- Yeah, yeah. But still, there’d be days my dad would say “when are you gonna change”. At home, I’d keep my cans in the entrance of the building. Well at first I kept them in my room on a shelf, but afterwards I kept everything in the entrance and I was always going back and forth with the cans. So, they thought this would never end. But they’ve always understood it. I sometimes showed my dad pieces I’d made.

M- But they didn’t know you did trains when you did them?

B- Not that, but they knew the rest, and they liked it.

M- Well and now to close off, how about you tell us who’s story you’d like to hear?

B- Hmm, several… Keis, Nova, Pie, Dios, Paco, and many more I could mention…

M- Perfect, we’ll get on it. Thank you very much for being with us and sharing part of your life with us.

B- Thank you guys.